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Post by bodycheck on Nov 21, 2009 12:41:10 GMT -5
So I know a lot of you are real steel shooters out there too. I'm looking to get my first concealed carry hand gun and want to go with a compact .40 because it doesn't have the kick of a .45 and has more stopping power of a 9mm.
Anyway. I went into H&H firearms last night after work here in Fort Wayne and I took a look at both guns (I'm thinking the XD is actually the SUB compact model he showed me.) They're both amazingly solid and comfortable in my hand. They're both around the same price and are both top of the line guns. Only real difference is the extra beaver tail safety on the XD which isn't that huge of a deal I guess. The XD also has a loaded chamber idecater on top and some other neat features. BUT I've heard about problems where they're jamming after putting thousands of rounds through them while Glock doesn't have that problem after 250k rounds AND COUNTING.
I just wanna know if any of you got trigger time with the two and which one ya like more or even if it's just with Glock or XD products in general. I'm having a rough time picking.
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Post by Koyote on Nov 21, 2009 13:25:54 GMT -5
Glock I hear is one of the best out there...but i'll take my XD .45acp over one any day i've never had a jam with mine ever even with cheap blazer ammo she'll feed which is funny cause the kimber my buddy owns would jam up with it alot. Get a .45acp because shooting twice is just silly Actuly this topic should be in the general section
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Post by Poser on Nov 21, 2009 17:19:17 GMT -5
Springfield, Springfield, Springfield!!!
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Post by Renegade on Nov 21, 2009 17:43:29 GMT -5
My dad and I are both going to get are CCP on my 18th birthday. We already have a Glock 23. So I will most likely use that. Then my dad will be using his Beretta 380 or the Glock if I want to buy something for myself.
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Post by Reaper-Command on Nov 21, 2009 19:47:12 GMT -5
H&K USP ;D
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Post by Ferratus-Command on Nov 22, 2009 7:36:02 GMT -5
I have owned Glocks since I was 21 and first got on the LaGrange County Sheriffs Department.. First was a Glock 17 9mm... My next was the Glock 21 which BY FAR is the best handgun I have ever owned.
I have shot springfield and while they are nice the trigger response is horrible and the reset is just as bad... NICE GUN but I do not care for the trigger..
I am also a certified Glock Armorer .. this year as a matter of fact and I can tear that thing down and put it back together and that is any part anywhere on the weapon..
Did you know !!!!! that Glocks are the only handgun ( at least I was told in class ) that can and will still fire with a broken trigger spring ?? neat huh... in class we took out the spring all together and reset and went with it... everytime if you do a proper trigger reset you can fire it...
Anyways.. Guess you know which weapon I would chose...
The only downside of a glock is the san fran grip.. if you have a san fran grip you will stovepipe or have problems.. You also cannot use reloads without expecting some issues.. the spring is too strong.
And after the years of training , shooting what have you I say go 45 or go home. If you want a personal defense weapon that you can carry they even have sub 45's in Glocks !! How sweet is that...
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Post by gasgunner- Command on Nov 22, 2009 21:39:18 GMT -5
im probably the oldest... and have probably shot the most rounds... and probably have built the most hand guns [except for maybe ferratus]... i can garuntee you that my .45 1911 that i built my self "kicks" less than a 9mm that i sold to koyote... i just shot it today and last weekend too... my buddy that owns a tiger tank [stopping power?] couldnt believe how "soft my 1911 shot... i rapid fired a complete mag into the bullseye [black area] thats smaller than a paper plate at the normal distance of 30 yds ... the shooting last weekend was done at the mongo shooting range... kicking has to do with the chosen round that is being used and how "hot" it is, and how strong the recoil spring is in the weapon being used [the spring can be changed in just about all guns], and there is also the isue of the way that you grip the gun yourself... bottom line, "KICKING" is not a problem, it can be fixed!!! now on to caliber... .45 is the ONLY choice you have!!! everything else is a compromise for people that cant "handle" a .45!!!!! think of it like this... it doesnt matter what gun in the world or what caliber it shoots... OR the type of ammo you use [hollowpoints, FMJ, wadcutter, tracer, safety slugs, exploding]... the ONLY thing you can be ABSOLUTELY sure of is the diameter of the hole that the given bullet will make when it penetrates the target... hollow points dont always open like they should, exploding ammo and the safety slugs with lead shot only break open if they hit a bone or something substantial... a .45 will always put a .45 inch hole in ya... there is the .50 handgun, but its like 5.00 dollars a round and is barely controllable when shooting it... the .45 is the biggest, and most widely used round out there... thats "controllable, affordable, and useable" its a NATO round so that means you will be able to find it just about anywhere in the world... like matt said... go .45 or go home... personally... i think the .40 is over rated, just like the 10mm was... and ya dont hear much about that anymore either... my brother has one... ammo is harder to find, and more expensive too... AND SMALLER!!!!!!!! they make high capicity, compact .45's that i think is the best personal defense gun to carry... and i can show ya how to use it if ya want... lol. i have also reloaded every nato round there is by the thousands... both rifle and pistol. and i believe ill be starting to do it again, starting with the .45!!! im an "OLD SCHOOL" type of guy... my personal choice will ALWAYS be the colt 1911 design or one of the clones... it was made in 1911 and is still in high demand today... what does that tell you??? it is one of the most "copied/modified" guns ever... if you have the time and want to build one [or have me build it for you], i can tell ya what to get and where to get it... it doesnt have to say "KIMBER" to shoot like a KIMBER... AR's and 1911's are my specialties!!!!!
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Post by Reaper-Command on Nov 22, 2009 23:28:38 GMT -5
here is some information for you to consider your choice
General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.
You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.
Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating
.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8
.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6
*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5
.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54
*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4
.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7
*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7
**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7
**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5
.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6
.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9
.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3
.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1
.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7
.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2
* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.
* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.
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Post by Reaper-Command on Nov 22, 2009 23:39:11 GMT -5
I would try to shoot both types of handguns and see which one feels better and you can operate and feel the most comfortable with and fits your hand the best. Don't get a GLOCK just cause it's a GLOCK, and everyone has one...I had one and it was alright, but I wasn't comfortable with it and got rid of it. Also the XD has a match grade barrel and the GLOCK has a hexagonal barrel...Match grade is a better barrel. Other then that they are pretty much even as far as weight and size. Don't know your budget but you might also want to consider a H&K
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Post by bodycheck on Nov 23, 2009 2:50:12 GMT -5
I dig the look and feel of the H&K's and I did consider one but after watching review after review as well as getting a hands on feel...I HATE the mag release position. It's just weird for my hand. So far I'm leaning toward the Glock NOT just cause it's a Glock but because it's the most comfortable for me. I need to find someone that has an XD I can shoot. I've already shot a Glock and I LOVE the simplicity of it as well as the feel.
Could anyone point me towards the best site for do's and do not's for Indiana carrying laws. I've heard open carry as well as non-open carry etc. etc. for example. Given it's a horrible idea and will draw unnecessary attention. I'm more or less curious and am trying to do as much homework as possible before making a purchase.
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Post by Renegade on Nov 23, 2009 15:53:16 GMT -5
There is also a pro to the Glock 23 and H&K USP, and that is because there are GBB replicas of them. Which could help in training. In my opinion.
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Post by Reaper-Command on Nov 23, 2009 16:55:18 GMT -5
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Post by gasgunner- Command on Nov 23, 2009 20:41:54 GMT -5
i dont totally agree with the info you posted reaper... [nothing against you], but the stuff ive seen and was tought is this... there is no thing as stopping power!!! its a myth... IF the first shots hits a vital organ, its over! [one shot stopping power reguardless of the size or caliber or power]... and for the other side of the spectrum... i have a video that shows ballistics of real rounds on real people... [grusome to say the least]... a major "somebody" with the army forensics people who like invented the "correct" way to use the ballistic gelatin... any ways, he goes on to say and show you a chunk of steel that is aprox 1ft long and about 2inch in diameter... weighs like 3 pounds... this should be the best thing for a "one stop shot" right??? as the story goes... it was a bolt from a sniper rifle that had missfired somehow and came back out from the rear of the reciever wich sheared off the cocking lever... it hit the person in the right hip, went through his body, exited out his butt cheak, and bounced of of a jeep door and into the ground... this guy drove himself to the hospital... another guy they showed was shot 42 times with a 9mm from state police and the only reason he finaly was dropped was when an officer hit him 5 more times with a 12 gauge slug... one of which blew his spine in two!!! whatever that "formula" is didnt mean anything at all if it doesnt hit something vital... stopping power has no effect if its used in the leg or arm... ya follow what i mean? ALSO, the most "FORCE" a victum can feel when being shot is going to be less than that of the guy shooting the weapon... [what the tape says]... since the bullet is slowing down as soon as it leaves the barrel... so those old movies where someone gets blown out the window are just hollywood... it would just put a big hole in ya if it were that big... that old myth that a .25 auto will bounce off of a leather jacket at 25 ft is also disproven when a black guy robbed a convience store and shot 1 round back into the store as he left... the teller lady was a "big" gal... the round went through the thick part of her arm [bicep area], into her side where it went through 1 lung, her heart, and stopped in her other lung... some other things that were used as advertising how well the round was for "stopping power" is that they would show a black and white print of the round as it was shot into ballistic gelatin... ya know, the one that shows how deep the round goes in and the "expansion" of the round, and the secondary "expansion" where its the shock wave of the force that pushed the gelatin apart... usually about the size of a softball... they put this picture on a graph and printed it on the back of ammo boxes to show what it would do and how far it would penetrate... well, the secondary expansion is almost useless... it only "moves" tissue to the side then lets it return to the normal place... they had colored in the pic and was calling all of the area "destroyed" tissue... it was a false statment, but wasnt known till later when a better way of testing was invented... i still have the tape somewhere i think, if you or anybody else wants to see it... its called "DEADLY BALLISTICS"... all actual bodys that they show ya, and real testing and whatnot... pretty cool video...
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Post by Reaper-Command on Nov 23, 2009 23:18:55 GMT -5
I just posted a respected formula used by forensic patholigists, not everything is going to be 100% all the time....that is why they have Murphy's Law. Stopping power also comes from the type of round you are using. A hollow point round will have more stopping power then a full metal jacket. There are lots of variables to stopping power.....but you can pretty much always count on a head shot to stop them!
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Post by gasgunner- Command on Nov 24, 2009 15:49:28 GMT -5
yep... a head shot should do the trick... however, the hollow point may transfer all of its energy into the target if it opens up like its supposed too, but the "stopping" part only works if something important is hit... say a hollow point hits a man in the chest and opens up perfect due to a solid hit on a rib bone... all energy was transferred... [ill bet it hurt like hell], however, the person is still able to move and possibly shoot back due to JUST a broken rib... then you have a shot with the FMJ [or any round], even the same type of hollow point... it doesnt hit a rib and doesnt open up like its designed to do... but since it slid between 2 ribs and stopped in the heart... its a "one shot stop"... the term stopping power is very vague... it kinda gives you an idea of what is going on, but at the same time i wouldnt bet anything [including my life] on it in a gun fight... "THEY" also suggest that you should use a round with like 16 to 24 inches of penetration... they said "glazer safety slugs" weren't any good cause they only had like a 8inch penetration in the gelatin... although there ARE those people that have 24inches to go to get to the center of their body... these people tend to NOT be the ones we need to shoot... lol. on the other hand, the crackheads /meth junkies barely cover the 8inches that a glazer safety slug supposedly is only good for... [glazer safety slugs look like a normal bullet with a blue ball in the "hollow point" style of tip, they are actually hollow all of the way, an egg shell of the brass jacket if you will... and they are filled with "shot" like a shotgun..] these break open and send a bunch of little bbs all over the inside of the body of whoever is shot... the doctors hardly ever get all of the holes fixed and the 1 person that was shot in ft wayne that i know of lasted 3 days in agony before he died of his wound... had like 7/8 hours of surgery to start with... what a way to die..... back to the subject... having all of the energy stop in the target is the best you can hope for... the person shot can only "feel" the impact "equal to or lesser than" what ever was felt by the person shooting the round... to STOP a target, you have to incapacitate them by hitting a vital organ, head or spine... if these are not hit... they can still go on doing whatever they were doing to get them shot... know what i mean??? its good that you always have an abundance of information at the flick of your finger... you post a lot of very cool stuff... and i like seeing all of the stuff you do post... and there will [in my opinion] always be some sort of formula to figure out why something did what it did... but sometimes the info is misleading too... so dont take any of these things as "gospel"... it just doesnt work that way... learn to shoot defensively as in combat... learn NOT to use your sights... they look cool and all of that, but they will get you killed in a real world shoot out... just point and pull... target hit... i had a friend with those laser grips on his KIMBER 1911... took him longer to find and use the little red dot BEFORE FIRING A ROUND!!! i dumped a entire mag into the IPSC style cardboard silhouette... [and yes, all 7 rounds were in the points circle/kill zone... just in case your wondering] lol!
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